Since we're on the subject, how do you think Tribe's refund policy should work?
Please try to stick to helpful thoughts. There seems to have been some interest in that recently. <poke>
Please try to stick to helpful thoughts. There seems to have been some interest in that recently. <poke>
posted by:
|
-
Re: Refund Policy Suggestions
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 11:04 AMRefunding should be pretty simple.
1) If one-year subscription is cancelled withing 30-days, full refund, otherwise prorated based on type of subscription and length of time remaining.
2) If subscriber is unsubscribed due to violations on contract for any reason, no refund is given. -
-
Re: Refund Policy Suggestions
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 12:27 PM<<2) If subscriber is unsubscribed due to violations on contract for any reason, no refund is given.>>
The only problem I see with this is there seems to be a lack of consistency in how TOU violations are policed. Sometimes it feels like the local bar, If you are a regular that the owner likes he'll give you some slack when you get drunk and act like a jackass but if you are some schmuck that he doesn't like then you are thrown out on your keester for the same behavior even if you did just pay for a pitcher of beer. Personally I have never minded that kind of policy in a local drinking hole but it might be better to have something a bit more solid for a site like Tribe. -
-
Re: Refund Policy Suggestions
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 12:37 PMI think that in general the current staff give a lot of leeway to everyone. I think they take great pains before unsubbing anyone. Usually those folks are seriously over the top. I don't believe they take it lightly but there is always room for improvement. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Refund Policy Suggestions
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 4:33 PMMystic, the apologist, pandered to his authority figure with the following:
"I think that in general the current staff give a lot of leeway to everyone. I think they take great pains before unsubbing anyone. Usually those folks are seriously over the top. I don't believe they take it lightly but there is always room for improvement. "
_________
This is bullshit. It is just a mechanical, complaint driven system. If someone complains a lot about another person, the subject of the complaints gets unsubbed. That's it. There is no thought process required,
For example, if I were to come back under a different IP and identity and start complaining constantly about your trolling and violations of TOU, Mystic, you would get unsubbed. All I would need to do is be hysterical about it and suggest that your conduct was causing me mental distress and make some vague reference to legal actionss. Tribe's reaction would be to unsub you in response to my complaints. Without notice to you.
Why? The unsubbing is a very mechanical mechanism for protecting tribe from liability, but is not a mechanism for arriving at the truth. The truth is not important in its liability protection. The truth is really not important and getting to it is just a waste of tribe's admin resources.
See, there's no tort liability for unsubbing someone who did not deserve to be unsubbed. But there could be tort liability for ignoring complaints. So you can't ignore complaints, no matter how ridiculous or under handed the complaints may be.
The system errs on the side of caution by accepting complaints at face value.
The whiners and crybabies have figured this out, and have learned to use complaints to the TOU GUY to play their own version of the tribe.net troll game.
I call it "games losers play." -
-
Re: Refund Policy Suggestions
Tue, February 26, 2008 - 4:05 PM>> I call it "games losers play." <<
How dare you! -
-
Re: Refund Policy Suggestions
Tue, February 26, 2008 - 4:18 PMShit! I didn't realize he was trying to say something.
Just what did mush-board say?
-
-
-
-
Re: Refund Policy Suggestions
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 12:52 PMbut it might be better to have something a bit more solid for a site like Tribe. >>>
I understand what you're stating....
because money is involved.
However, the aspect that complicates this being actualized is that it's very difficult to define what a trolling post is.
So the code of conduct description can only be based on... What TOU guys vision of the definition is.
As I've said before...
"Mill's harm principle" is the best argument for censorship...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harm_principle
If the use in question... will harm people... is a narrower definition.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Refund Policy Suggestions
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 2:35 PM"2) If subscriber is unsubscribed due to violations on contract for any reason, no refund is given."
Unacceptable answer.
Unless all users who are unsubscribed due to violations face a set fee for said violation, it would be highly discriminatory and a very dangerous precedent to be set.
In that Tribe.net needs money. If the current terms state that anyone can be unsubbed for any reason, that means they could unsub each prepaid member at any time and keep the money. This is not only unethical but is probably illegal.
Everyone, regardless of why or how they leave Tribe.net, after having prepaid ahead, deserves a pro-rated refund.
I'm not willing to have a fee assessed on my behavior, or just because someone who has access to the "ejectomatic" button doesn't like me or my avatar or just chose someone at random to unsub because they were in a crappy mood.
Remember when it was said that Premium users would have more features, but that the same TOU would apply? And people were saying that it wouldn't make a difference how people were treated, and I said it would make a huge difference on how people are perceived. It has turned out to be a little of both. But nowhere are their updated TOU that specify that Premium members have to obey TOU more than regular members.
That's sort of like saying they are REALLY supposed to stop at a STOP sign. Hello? The sign says STOP. It doesn't say only this person or that one. Ditto for TOU. It means all people. And it is unjust to consider taking the money from any member who has prepaid. The same fees are not being assessed on any other individuals.
Now, if they could issue tickets based on various verifiable aspects of TOU, then that would be different. Like per swear word. -
-
Re: Refund Policy Suggestions
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 2:45 PMI'd be willing to bet that relatively few people get unsubbed and more likely the same people repeatedly.
~V~
-
Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 2:53 PM10. Termination
You may cancel the Service at any time, with or without cause or for any reason, by canceling your tribe.net membership.
We may cancel, suspend, or block your access to the Service at any time, with immediate effect. This may be without cause and without notice. Once the Service is cancelled, you will no longer be able to access or retrieve any data you had stored on the Service.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 2:59 PMI am very familiar with TOU and CoC. Your point is? -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 3:09 PM"I'd be willing to bet that relatively few people get unsubbed and more likely the same people repeatedly."
~V~ -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 3:13 PMYep. I would make that bet.
-
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 3:17 PMMy point is they can unsub without reason or notice. It's just like some businesses can fire without reason. If they want to, they can. Nothing can be done about it. Soooooooooooo, that's a set up for pretty discriminatory practices if you want to put it that way. I think it's putting the TOU in a god/goddess position. We say okay when we sign up for our accounts. We are subject to these terms. Why all the sniveling? -
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 3:40 PMOh! I see.
You got me on that one. I don't agree with those terms. LOL! Now I'll probably get kicked off. Ha!
I have a deeply seated sense of justice. Of right and wrong. And I constantly learn and have to rework what is right and what is wrong.
I dislike loopholes that allow that kind of rampant discrimination while sloughing off the label of it being discriminatory. "We didn't fire you because you are a woman, we always fire someone on the new moon."
It seems extremely dishonest. I dislike dishonesty. And I despise subjective enforcement. Because in those rules that we all agreed to, there are things about swearing. That's easy enough to define. No vulgar language. But it's not enforced.
People here get kicked off for some violations or no violations. But there are also CLEAR violations that are NEVER enforced. That, in my mind, is total bologna.
Yes, I realize they don't have a lot of time, and are not that proactive. I just hate hypocrisy. In everyone, including myself. Makes me want to crawl out of my own skin and disown myself when I catch myself doing it. -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 3:52 PMI use a similar policy on my site, TRUE.
It's our house, and if one of the guests behaves inappropriately enough, they may be shown the door. We do not pay for their cab fare home.
Generally it is spammers who are the only violators. But there have been a few who were booted for being excessively rude to other people on the site. We do block IP's in many cases. That's one of my jobs.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 4:15 PMCraig: "I use a similar policy on my site, TRUE."
Which policy? Like the TOU here? Or you kick people off randomly on the new moon? -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 4:20 PMAll sites have terms of use. By and large they are pretty similar.
I don't see a great deal of randomness in the unsubscribings here. And I'm skeptical that you do either. It's more the random (but easily forecastable) re-entry's that are the problem here, if you ask me.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 4:41 PMNo, Craig, youa are correct, the unsubbings are not random.
They are complaint driven. Complaints are taken at face value, and if there are enough complaints, a person is unsubbed. This is because there is no tort liability for unsubbing someone, even if they do not deserve to be unsubbed, but there is perceived to be a potential tort liability for ignoring complaints, so the system errs on the side of caution by unsubbing anyone if someone is complaining about them enough.
And being complaint driven, the same complainers tend to complain about the same people. So the same people tend to get unsubbed, repeatedly.
Hence, it is not random.
The only thing that is random is the timing. It sometimes takes tribe a good while to do anything. Apparently, there is some slight amount of human operation required in the process, so nothing happens until an employee clocks in, and that seems to be random.
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 4:43 PMThere IS a lot of scapegoating.
Yes, in many cases, the unsubscription is both predictable and warranted. However, everyone involved is not treated equally, in that all involved are not unsubscribed. People that say/do equally bad things are not warned or removed. THAT bothers me. A lot. -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 5:01 PMI submit that if there were an effective mechanism for preventing re-entry, you would see that behaviour come to an end pretty dang fast.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 5:05 PMBut if the rules are not equally applied, it would not ultimately solve the problem, in my opinion. -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 5:12 PMSee, and I think the equality would come through attrition over time. If new troublemakers come along they can receive some friendly attention, since the old ones would not have to be dealt with time after time after time after time...
That gets demoralizing to the people responsible for enforcement, and just reinforces the cruddy behaviour, since the consequences really have no teeth. That's what the refund brouhaha is all about; there are at least real gums involved there.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 5:59 PMBut you are then giving up on some people. Giving up hope.
I don't think that cruddy behavior needs to be reinforced, and that could be a lot of the problem. People have made up their minds about what some people are, and if a person is associated with being a "troll" or nincompoop, that person NEVER gets to be anything else.
They are forced into the nincompoop role and no one will listen or interact with that person otherwise. People are more than just one label. All people are more than just one label.
If all everyone sees the "Hello, my name is Alt-Troll" label, they won't bother trying to find out more about that person.
I see bits of good in everyone. And I KNOW that everyone has some kind of gift, something to offer, something in common. If all you see is one part, that is all you can make an assessment of. But the person may be showing other parts elsewhere.
If the person does not show those parts, then we never know for sure what that person is about. We can only know what we see. And what we see is interpreted through our own life experience. Many people still think I am an alt-troll person because I'm so weird. This is my only account. And I'm just weird. As far as I know, weirdness is not a TOU offense. But the interpretation of others of my behavior becomes a TOU violation against me.
If someone gives that alt-troll label to someone else, they are banning that person from being more than an alt-troll. Everything will be filtered through the words "alt-troll" and everything will be interpreted as trolling. How fair is that?
We must not expect or demand good behavior from anyone else that we are not willing to do ourselves.
People themselves KNOW when they are insulting another person. As they are typing it out, they KNOW what they mean by it. Don't do that. There's a difference between playfulness (sometimes playfulness with an edge) and hurting people. Don't hurt people. Address the issue without name calling. Greet each person as if they have value and worth. There will be much better results if we do that, rather than assuming certain people have no worth and kick them off. -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 6:49 PMYes, there are indeed some people here for whom I have personally given up hope.
I don't know what else to say to you. I've been pretty fortunate in having to boot few people over 6+ years, in part because our team set the standards for what we considered acceptable use early and stuck with them firmly. People adapted or decided to vote with their feet.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 7:03 PM"our team set the standards for what we considered acceptable use early and stuck with them firmly"
That is one thing that is missing on this site.
And it could be because of the changing styles of management, yes?
How can we move forward from this point, considering what this site has been through? -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 7:11 PMMagic 8-ball says: Outlook not so good.
Craig says: I really just don't know. I admit I'm glad it's not my headache.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 12:26 AM"Yes, there are indeed some people here for whom I have personally given up hope."
____________
I gave up hope on you when you created all those zombie alts in your own image to create the appearance that you had many friends.
Don't tell me those people were real. They were all exactly like you.
But seriously, do you have any idea how pompous you sound, talking about running your website with an iron fist?
You've given up hope? What was your hope? That everyone would be banal and conform to your expectations?
What made tribe interesting is that it was the opposite of craigworld. People did not all have to be alike and conform to any one person's standards.
But that has changed. With the system now in place, anyone who can't hold his own can just have other people removed if they complain enough.
Say, if you are going to brag about how the website you moderate is a model of success, can you provide us with a link? I promise I won't join it. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 12:46 AMNo need to post the link to the website you run with an iron fist, Craig. I saw it.
It is a computer nerd forum.. Oh my god. As if a bunch of hard core computer nerds ever get wild and crazy.
Maybe they should troll each other now and then, just to check to see if any of them have a pulse or are capable of any emotional response beyond flat affect.
LOL! -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 2:25 AM.. and failing.
You've lost it. The edge. Your touch. Gone. -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 6:57 AMProbably just as well to stop egging him on. There's nothing to gain by it.
-
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 10:04 AMYou're right Craig. This show is into the rerun season. Time to change the channel. -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 10:20 AM<click>
<click>
<click>
<whack, whack, whack>
I think the remote control is broken, dammit. -
-
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 1:45 PMYes! I love that flick!
Mystic <popping corn now> -
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 2:55 PMGood movie, good music:
www.youtube.com/watch
-
-
-
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 7:31 AM"You've lost it. The edge. Your touch. Gone. "
----------------
Yeah, I'm not too inspired lately. It stems from the total lack of any worthy opponents. You, in particular, Mystic, really bring down the level of inspiration. -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 9:37 AMThat's because you don't know him, Uncle Buck...errrr billy. If you were to go face to face with him in your verbal sparring matches, my money is on Mystic. I've read your banter on several threads and a lot of it looks like cut and paste since it reads so similarly. Amazing. Guess they taught you that in that "law" school, huh?
You main objective in tribe is to see just how many pages of words you can take up with one entry? -
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 1:36 PM"You main objective in tribe is to see just how many pages of words you can take up with one entry?"
Hey, wait a minute. That is MY job. ;-) -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 1:50 PMYou're falling short, True.
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Mon, February 25, 2008 - 10:30 PM"If you were to go face to face with him in your verbal sparring matches, my money is on Mystic."
________
This only proves that this officially sanctioned tribe appeals to a taste for vulgar flamming, low brow humor and the lowest common denominator. -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Mon, February 25, 2008 - 10:39 PMIf those are the appeals of this tribe....then it says quite a lot about you, also. You seem to dominate the postings once they begin. If it is so "low brow" and so "vulgar" and the "lowest common denominator" and repulses you so, why don't you take your holier than thou self and move on somewhere where the constituency are more your type.... oh wait...pigs can't type. I keep forgetting that. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Terms of Use
Mon, February 25, 2008 - 10:56 PMAll it says about me is that there does exist a confederacy of dunces. -
-
Re: Terms of Use
Mon, February 25, 2008 - 11:28 PMI know you are but what am I?
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 10:03 AM>>Yeah, I'm not too inspired lately.<<
I'm not here to inspire you. You're here to entertain me.
And you suck.
boo.
-
-
-
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sun, February 24, 2008 - 2:24 AM... still trying to get unsubbed ...
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Terms of Use
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 3:41 PMWhy all the sniveling?>>>>
So that an argument of circular reasoning can continue....
where the speaker merely repeats his assertions in different words... suggesting that these are "proofs".
And the discourse continues endlessly...
-
I'm going to invade Iraq ...
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 3:52 PM
Because they have weapons
Of mass destruction
And they support terrorism.
These are lies but
Pay no attention to that.
Many will die and many more
Will be maimed.
Many more innocent Iraqi citizens
(including children)
Will be killed and maimed.
For no good cause.
Other than payback
For embarrassing my Daddy.
Oh.
And forget about going after
Osama.
The one responsible for
9/11.
We're gonna let him get
Clean away.
These are the terms for joining my army.
Volunteers?
_______________________________________________
My point? ....
1. How many people would
-
-
-
-
-
